theladders should stop bait-n-switch tactics
February 2nd, 2007
Do a search on a site like LocalCareers for TheLadders. You’ll get to a job like this:
“Great!” you say to yourself, “TheLadders has an opening for a ‘Sr. Manager, Interactive Marketing.’ I’d like to work for them.”
Not so fast. Clicking the apply button takes you here:
To a novice, which includes most job seekers, this looks like the process to apply to the job at TheLadders. However, all this is a way for TheLadders to get users to register for membership on their site in order to then access the job that exists there.
In order to actually apply to this job (which, again, isn’t even with TheLadders), you have to pay a minimum of $30 to do so.
Yeah, you can argue that third parties do this all the time, representing their clients. The big difference, however, is the pay-to-play factor. If I go to a job site where the expectation is that I can view and apply to jobs at no cost and I suddenly get thrown into a pay situation, it just feels slimy.
Let’s call this what it is: A sneaky way for TheLadders to trick job seekers into becoming members and paying clients. Shame on them and shame on the job sites that knowingly allow them to do it.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Hi Joel,
Well, you’re never one to let the facts get in the way of your opinion, are you?
While our site is a pay for subscription service, much like any newsletter, newspaper or magazine, in fact people *can* and *do* apply for the jobs we advertise on other sites for free. If you had been thorough in your research, you would have discovered that.
As for the overall concept of our advertising our service, it is no different than The Wall Street Journal giving away 13 weeks free on registration… A chance to test the product out before committing to purchase.
You occasionally throw these bomb comments our way without understanding the service, so I suppose I’m guilty of rising to your link baiting. In the future, feel free to call me first, or, heavens!, actually do a thorough product review.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Marc, how exactly? Walk us through the process and vindicate yourself.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:14 pm
I just saved 50% with the 12 month, $180. subscription! I hope i get my dream job. Now I need to cancel my subscription to WSJ. I never knew they used that ol’ marketing ploy on me…rat bastards.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:16 pm
I also would like the walk through, starting with the exact job that Joel spotted. Please show us how a candidate can apply to that job at no charge.
Also, the analogy to the Wall Street Journal is an interesting one. When I signed up for the WSJ, there was clear, unequivocal, prominent disclosure that it was a free trial and that the annual subscription price was $x. Does TheLadders do that as clearly, as unequivocally, and as prominently in these job postings or do candidates need to read the fine print? If the latter, then the analogy is not only flawed but also misleading.
I like TheLadders. It is a great job hunting tool for its niche. It has so much to offer that it need not engage in slimy marketing tactics, if in fact that is what it is doing. Please prove us wrong.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:49 pm
I think TheLadders is a great site but I agree that these listings I’ve seen around the web are very misleading. I’m glad someone finally pointed this out.
February 3rd, 2007 at 1:27 am
OK, so I took TheLadders challenge, and I can’t find any job on this site that simply allows me to apply without choosing one of the following options:
- FREE BASIC View Jobs and Create a Bio
- $30 1 Month - View and Apply to Jobs and Contact Recruiters
- $120 6 Months - View and Apply to Jobs and Contact Recruiters
- $180 12 Months - View and Apply to Jobs and Contact Recruiters
Now it seems to me that Joel is correct, because it clearly states on TheLadders site that I have to pay $30 to apply. Hmm…why not just go to indeed.com (or simplyhired or any of the free aggregators or free job boards) where there are millions of jobs that I don’t have to pay a dime to apply to?
When are people gonna realize that it is difficult, nearly impossible (and probably not even nice) to create a business model where you charge the jobseeker to apply to a job? TheLadders offers me no value over what Monster or Indeed provides (aside from annoying weekly email newsletters about how great they are or some lame career article I can get for free anywhere on the web). Their claim that they have jobs that are unique and different (thus the reason for paying), is not true. I did a search for Franchoice, Aurora Healthcare and Lawson (a few of TheLadder’s featured employers), and guess what? I found tons of jobs for each of these companies on indeed – now why would I spend $30 with TheLadders, when I could buy a good case of beer with that money?
I challenge TheLadders to provide us examples of jobs that are not indexed at Monster, Careerbuilder, or Indeed, etc. and to clearly explain the value of paying for membership to their site.
I must be stupid because I don’t understand how it works. Maybe I’ll ask Peter Weddle. Since he’s a featured writer on TheLadders, I’m sure he learned about their business model before letting them put his picture and articles out on their site, right? Don’t hold your breath. Maybe this guy Steve from CollegeRecruiter can tell me, since he says “I like TheLadders. It is a great job hunting tool for its niche. ” What niche? The “ripping off jobseekers” niche? Sounds like he’s kissing some…well you know.
Smells like a ripoff to me.
February 3rd, 2007 at 2:13 am
Hi everybody — so, to give you the walk through:
1) go to www.hotjobs.com
2) search for “theladders”
3) first job that comes up is “Director - Equipment, Parts & Logistics”
4) fill out registration information and select free option
5) click through and reach screen that says “Welcome to OpsLadder Basic, marc
Go to the job you clicked on: Director - Equipment, Parts & Logistics in Chicago, IL”
6) click on link to job
7) apply for free
marc
February 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 am
“Shame on them and shame on the job sites that knowingly allow them to do it.”
And what of the employers who allow their content to be misrepresented as employment opportunities with TheLadders.com, Inc.? There seems to be no defense against the screenshot above that CLEARLY presents the employment opportunity as a position with TheLadders.com, Inc. TheLadders site boasts an impressive array of corporate logos, whose recruiting decision-makers are obviously willing to have their content, vis-a-vis, their opportunities for employment, used and abused in such a fashion.
I suggest that this type of content distribution/subscription scheme should be reviewed by each and every corporate recruiting decision-maker as to whether they are happy with their employment opportunities being represented in such a fashion.
February 3rd, 2007 at 10:40 am
Wow, SEVEN STEPS is REALLY user-friendly - NOT! I just can’t believe all these smart people failed to figure it out. As I see it, Marc should fix his site and be thanking Joel and buying him dinner instead of attacking him.
February 3rd, 2007 at 11:16 am
John,
I will accept your apology for your personal attack on my character. I do not appreciate your implication that I am kissing TheLadders’ butt or any other entity’s.
The niche of which I wrote is high income job seekers. Those candidates are quite unlike the vast majority of job seekers as the high income job seekers do not have the time or inclination to wade through dozens or even hundreds of postings. They know that the positions which are well suited to their needs are rarely advertised, but TheLadders has seen some success in getting employers to list those high income opportunities because TheLadders only allows high income job seekers to be members. As a result, the employers that use TheLadders are not bombarded with resumes from people who are very nice and talented but not qualified because they’ve never held a position that pays them well enough. We can debate the merits of that qualification all day long, but it is a qualification that many employers have for their upper most positions.
Given that you saw fit to publish your personal attack against me as a comment to this blog, I would hope that you will see fit to also publish your personal apology to me in this blog.
February 3rd, 2007 at 11:36 am
Disclosure … I’m a member and fan of TheLadders … I’m also a fan of non-membership sites Indeed, JobCentral and Jobster.
First let me say that the ad Joel points out is, in my opinion, very misleading. Furthermore the ad seems contrary to all of my other experiences with TheLadders that have been very professional.
How different would the discussion have been if Marc had started his response with “Joel, thanks for the opportunity to clarify our services.” The average blog reader is almost never aware of ‘past sins’ that might be behind a testy response. Always better to come off like the voice of reason rather than the voice of anger.
Regarding the value proposition for the TheLadders … it’s worth every penny in my book. Here’s why … real job opportunities paying more than $100k per year are a small percentage of available openings, and these are the only jobs that members of TheLadders want to see. Their members don’t want to waste time sorting through all of the ads to find the gems … so they pay staff at TheLadders to do it for them. According to TheLadders, they have two staff member review every order to make sure it is appropriate for their audience before it is listed. Is this worth $30 per month to me? Yes. Perhaps not to you … that’s why there are other models out there to choose from.
Good hunting …
Bob :-)
February 3rd, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Joel, thanks for bringing this to our attention. There is nothing more frustrating than filling out forms and next being asked for a credit card. Had this happen when I was trying out a download for my computer, which explained all the issues I had, but then when I clicked to fix, well, of course I had to pay for the upgrade..
Had they mentioned that in the beginning of course I would not even had taken the time to download, and now had to spend time deleting, and starting my search for a similar product that would allow a free trial.
Looking for a job is frustrating enough, but when someone clicks on a site, it is really good to know what is involved before getting into filling out information, clicking here, then there, and then finding out.. oh yeah, uh Sorry, we forgot to tell you from the get go, you may have to pay, and this is the cost…
Karen
February 3rd, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Hi Bob –
You’re probably right, so I’ll take your admonition to heart.
I suppose I was reacting to Joel’s past behavior. If Joel had a past history of being interested in fairly representing situations, I think it would be worth it to discuss our service with him. But after a long series of pretty negative comments by Joel about everybody in the industry, I don’t think he’s actually interested in the truth so much as he is in throwing bombs and saying incendiary things. I unsubscribed from his feed when he finally crossed the line and starting calling good people names, like here: http://www.cheezhead.com/2005/12/23/best-of-2005-in-online-recruitment/ where he calls Jason Goldberg a Naploeon Complex.
I’ve found in my career that there’s really no way to have a civilized or intellectually illuminating conversation with somebody so prone to saying nasty and mean things.
In regards to Ragin’ Cajun:
It’s 2 clicks and a registration form for the consumer, not seven steps. The seven steps is to reproduce Joel’s experience of visiting HotJobs, searching for something from us, then clicking thru as a typical job-seeker would.
In regards to Catbert:
We’d prefer to use the company’s logo and name, but most of our partner sites insist we use ours. You can imagine what a drag it is for both sides when people call my office to apply for jobs with titles like “Director, NBA Events.” Under our Terms of Use, and in our communications with our corporate posters, we make it clear that, among other things, “In accepting this Agreement, You also grant TheLadders.com and its affiliates the license to use, reproduce and communicate to the public and display the name and trademark of your organization and your status as a contributor of content to TheLadders.com.”
Marc
February 3rd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Well said Marc. Although Joel does provide some intersting insight into SEO and PPC occasionally, he seems much more bent on spewing his own opinion regardless of whether it’s based in fact or not.
I always find his constant bashing of Monster amusing. He’s taken the opportunity to take swings at M for the Miller ads on their site, claiming it’s poortly targeted advertising. It’s become pretty clear that he has no idea how graphical advertising works, because it’s the *advertiser*, not Monster who chooses the targeting criteria. And here’s another radical idea…maybe they felt the overall demographic of the site was valuable, so they bought untargeted impressions at a discount! So, he either doesn’t understand the basic principles of how advertising works, or doesn’t understand that Monster is a public company that needs to grow revenues. But now that I think about it, maybe their targeting is better than he gives credit for…it looks like Joel is a beer drinker: http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/01/24/off-to-the-unconference/
Of course it doesn’t end there…how about the big announcement that HotJobs had “unleashed” a targeted e-mail product out of so-called desperation? http://www.cheezhead.com/2006/07/19/yahoo-hotjobs-unleashes-targeted-emails
In a shocking move, he didn’t do his research and published a post filled with misinformation. Once again, this is a product where the *advertiser*, not HotJobs, chooses the target audience. The gem of the post, however, is that the product had been used by the recruiting community for well over a year. Cutting edge blog, my friend.
The real shame of it all is that this is a widely-read and well-respected blog within the HR community. Joel is clearly doing all of his readers a disservice when he pumps everyone full of misinformation to fulfill whatever personal agendas or vendettas he has.
And for that, Joel, *YOU* should be ashamed.
February 3rd, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Marc-I suspect it’s only a drag if they haven’t paid for a subscription. Thanks for the insight into your T&C’s. I was confident, and you’ve graciously reinforced that confidence, that you would not use logo’s or content without written permission. I’m sure they covered that at Harvard.
My comment/question was really towards the person(s) responsible for agreeing to such terms and giving your firm license to distribute their content in such a fashion. I’ve been “that guy” in previous lives and it simply does not seem to fit with an employment branding strategy (IMO) to have corporate job positions of any level represented as positions at, or of, another firm. The fact that you receive calls in your office to that effect proves the point that the information is misleading at best, and disingenuous at worst.
I would be interesting to hear some feedback from corporate recruiting decision-makers about this service and its form, fit, and function within an overall employment branding strategy. Do you (corporate recruiting decision-makers) get sign-off from your Marketing Dept. prior to signing terms such as are in use by The Ladders.com? And Legal sign-off? Are you, as Marc asserts, fully aware through communications from TheLadders.com that your content is being posted to appear as a position with the firm you bought the posting from in the first place?
Regarding one comment in Mr. Rothberg’s post, “TheLadders only allows high income job seekers to be members”…is this accurate? Are W-2’s or other proof of income required?
At the end of the day, it seems to me that TheLadders.com is 6figurejobs.com with a job seeker subscription charge. What the hell, it’s a free market economy and if people are willing to pony up $$ to view the job postings, then it’s nothing more than testimony to the value of a Harvard MBA.
I’m calling Marc’s office Monday am about that NBA gig. I could SO do that job!
February 3rd, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Catbert, Heather over at Microsoft gives TheLadders a glowing recco
http://blogs.msdn.com/heatherleigh/archive/2007/01/26/playing-favorites-with-recruiting-tools.aspx
Marco, I know Joel and he is an authentic iconoclast- so what ? Shocking that a blogger might have strong opinions ? You know what the expected journalistic standards are on this blog? Zip. Nada. Zero.
So Joel misses here and there. Big woo. He hits a lot of times too. Joel should be ashamed? I call bullshit on that- anyone looking to Joel for objectivity should be ashamed of themselves.
Marc is smooth as pudding- as you would expect of a person of his background. Like Joel, he hits, and sometimes he misses. TheLadders works- it gets good reviews, seems to make money, etc. and why would anyone expect otherwise? A community full of $100K plus earners is going to provide some good pickings for recruiters. Charging the jobseeker clearly does provide a barrier that ups the quality level.
Fact of the matter is that social class is often the driving force in employment decisions. Among the class that is Marc’s customer base, a nominal charge means little. Don’t shop at champaign stores on a beer budget is likely the lesson of this post- that, and Marc needs to tweak his ads to show what kind of store he is running; so po’ folks need not waste their time.
February 3rd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Martin,
Excellent point which also presents the problem. I would guess a vast majority of the audience of this site is HR/recruiters, not marketers or people that have studied advertising. Of course some of the audience has, but the vast majority? Probably not.
They come here because Joel is considered a subject matter expert. To grossly misrepresent or not present all the facts has nothing to do with objectivity or iconoclasty, it has to do with honesty. And he doesn’t owe his readers any journalistic standards because he’s “just” a blogger? Really? Opinions can be presented without having any basis in fact? Respectfully disagree, my friend. Can I start a blog and PhotoShop a Hitler mustache on his face, and start reporting that he’s a practicing Nazi? Even though it’s clearly not true, it’s only on a blog with no journalistic standards.
Joel can bash the establishment all that he wants, but I personally find his method of doing so to be extremely disingenuous.
I read this blog regularly, and to see the weak, obvious jab taken instead of presenting a well-thought out, well-researched idea over and over. ..well, that’s when I had to call BS.
February 3rd, 2007 at 7:31 pm
There’s probably some truth to the beer banners on Monster being run at the choice of the beer company rather than Monster if Monster does what most web sites do and sell remnant banner ads through a re-seller who sells them to the highest bidder. That bidding process is usually automated and results in banners which generate the highest click through ratio on your site being shown the most. That high ctr makes the banner advertisers happy. But there’s also some truth to Monster knowingly selling ads to beer companies as most of the banner re-sellers allow their publishers such as Monster is in this situation to block certain types of ads from appearing on their site.
We use a re-seller like Monster probably does. We might even use the same one. We’ve blocked alcohol ads, but it is more important for us to do so because of our college audience.
Could Monster block the beer ads? Sure. Should they? Nah. Guys, lighten up. Joel isn’t tearing Monster a new one with those blog entries. He’s having some fun. Not everything in life needs to be serious. Have a chuckle now and then. It will do you some good. In fact, have a chuckle while you’re enjoying a good beer.
February 3rd, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Marco- Hmmmm…Joel is not honest ?
Lets go to ever-dependable wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honesty
“Honesty, the quality of being honest, is a value which can be defined in multiple ways. In the context of human communication, people are generally said to be honest when they tell the truth to the best of their knowledge and do not hide what they know or think.”
I think Joel said what he thought at the time- that may have changed, or maybe not. In that 2005 post that Marc said was the last straw, Joel also gave TheLadders an honerable mention.
Somewhere between gray lady exactitude and total off the wall nuttiness is where you might find this blog, but we can’t go farther because you hit the Godwin wall on us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
February 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Fair enough. I know (hope) your statement was in jest, but I think it was pretty clear that I was in no way calling Joel a Nazi or making any comparison to him and Hitler. I was intentionally extreme with the analogy to illustrate my point.
I’ll end with this - ignorance of the law doesn’t make you innocent if you commit the crime. Ignorance of the facts doesn’t make your statement true when you publish it on your blog.
February 4th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I am a little confused, wasn’t this meant to be a post about confusing advertising? How did it roll to so many different levels? Also, why the finger pointing. Know what they say about those fingers pointing outwards, and the one back? (and we all know who they are)
Okay, as a consumer, would love to discuss this post as an outsider - Let’s say I am on a roll with my search, and come accross this great ad on Hotjobs, for director of equipment - It has my name written all over it, and I am interested. Don’t know who the company is that is posting this job, so I cannot go to their website - well I just want info on this job, so I can get back to my search - and of course don’t understand the whole process.. gee, don’t want to research this ladders company yet, on a roll just trying to get info, send out my resume, and fill up that pipeline.
Wouldn’t it then not be fair that before I click on that job on hotjobs that I may be informed what I may be getting into, and the limited information that the free basic view will give me before I fill out that submission form? That it is worth spending the 30 or more?
Some say that 30 is not much for the person making the salary range that Ladders targets. I am bothered by that statement. Gee, isn’t that taking a lot for granted. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but isn’t that assuming that Just because a person makes 250k in salary they cannot be in their eyeballs in debt, especially if they have been out of work for a while, and even 35 dollars a mth could mean a lot, and an individual would appreciate understanding what they are getting into before they keep hitting those click buttons.
Okay, maybe I am just a little antsy today, because of that recent download which I had to delete off my computer, but it took me away from other sites that I had been searching, and had to start from scratch, and it was at 1AM, so a few steps could have been avoided.. So, maybe this isn’t as big a deal as it appears…
Don’t know Marc, but I am tending to think indeed, just a little more information would be fair even to the individual who is on their search for the elusive exectuive position.
Just a thought.
Karen
February 4th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Thought I should chime in since Martin mentioned that I endorse TheLadders, which I do. My post made the reasons pretty clear, but in short, the main reason is that I make hires through TheLadders. The candidates that I get from my postings on TheLadders more closely match my job postings. So when I post a job there, I end up spending less time wading through resumes. It also reduces the amount of time my team needs to devote to direct sourcing for candidates. For my team at Microsoft (the only team for which I would feel comfortable speaking, by the way), TheLadders is our most fruitful job posting resource.
I also want to make clear that I work closely with the staff at TheLadders and have met with them several times (by phone and in-person) to discuss projects and our recruiting needs/process flow, etc. I see my work with them as a partnership, which is one of the reasons why they get more of my time and attention than other providers. I feel it’s justified because we make hires through them. The reason I bring this up is that I notice many people praising vendors (if you can call a company that offers job postings for free a vendor…a provider?), but some of them have not actually worked with the vendors (either in an advisory capacity or actually using their tool). I think it’s OK as long as people know you are supporting the people and their business concept, versus endorsing the tool. I support theLadders people and business concept and I have used their site to make a number of hires on my team. It would be hard for me to work with people like the ones I have encountered at TheLadders and not proactively support them. They have been great to work with and have shown the utmost professionalism in all of their dealings with me.
I’m not going to get into the personal stuff going on here. I haven’t yet met Joel (one of these days I am sure!) and have, on occassion, been known to cheer on the professional pot-stirrers, but I don’t like to get into the personal stuff. Marc and Joel can sort that out…they are big boys. I am also not going to disparage any other vendors, because what doesn’t work for my business (we are a centralized candidate generation team) may work for someone else’s and the market has a way of sorting that stuff out anyway. I think asking questions of the people that are offering us services is a good thing. Only Joel can tell us whether Marc answered his question sufficiently.
But if anyone has questions for me on my experience with TheLadders, feel free to get in touch with me. I can tell you about some best practices and some challenges. Just wanted to add my two cents.
February 6th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
One thing that’s interesting about the Ladders is that it’s the only site I know of (or the only big-time one) whose primary revenue source is candidates. This tells me that they, unlike Monster, CB, Yahoo, or anyone else, actually has a primary incentive to deliver successful outcomes for candidates. If they fail to do that consistently, their revenue stream will dry up. Nobody complains about the fees charged by resume writers and career coaches out there who try to help people get better jobs. The Ladders is no different.
February 7th, 2007 at 11:43 am
Marc Cenedella is missing one important fact in his replies. Sure, you can APPLY to jobs for free, and this is what I was doing for a while. Then, when a company expressed interest in my resume, I had to pay in order for the company to be able to contact me. As Joel said originally, it seems slimy. Very slimy. I will never apply to a Ladders job again.
February 7th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
[…] Cheezhead: theladders should stop bait-n-switch tactics “To a novice, which includes most job seekers, this looks like the process to apply to the job at TheLadders. However, all this is is a way for TheLadders to get users to register for membership on their site in order to then access the job that exists there… […]
February 8th, 2007 at 9:18 am
[…] Cheezhead makes a note about how theladders should stop bait-n-switch tactics in which they post a link to a job that tries to get you to register with them before you can check out the job in full. The problem exists with many job boards, large and small. If you’ve ever tried to apply for jobs on Careerbuilder then you’ve probably experienced a similar situation. They try to trick you into putting your resume and information into their database while you are “applying for” a job with a company that posted their job on the site. Let’s face it, these are the days of the net savvy seeker. […]
February 12th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
LocalCareers / The Ladders Brouhaha
Joel approached the situation on LocalCareers.com from a candidate’s point of view, but when I was looking at it yesterday I was asking the question Why on earth would LocalCareers allow The Ladders to spam their search results?
I cant imagine a…
February 16th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Thanks Joel for shedding some light on this. As a senior-level professional, and someone who considers herself web savvy when conducting a job search, I am also turned off by Ladders’ tactics. They may think they are fooling a lot of job seekers, but not me. Many of my peers agree.
None of these job sites are perfect. Personally, I like to stick with the free boards. I find that using the big boards like Career Builder and a site like 6FigureJobs.com is the best method. I’ve been using 6FigureJobs for over 5 years. They also have a free vertical service called JobSweeper which delivers so many more $100K jobs. Why anyone would want to pay to search for jobs is beyond me. There are so many better options out there. Love your site Joel. Best, KP
February 17th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
can’t justify paying for scraped jobs
February 18th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
This pay-for-play scheme is all too common on Craigslist. You see a job for data entry or even consultants wanted. You apply by sending an email. You then get a response, and at the bottom of the very long email response is a request asking you to pay $5 via PayPal to cover administrative costs.
Job seekers should NEVER have to pay to apply for ANY job. Looking for a job is frustrating enough. When someone clicks on a job ad to apply, it is really good to know what is involved before getting into filling out information and then finding out.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:34 am
Hey, we’re going after the bad guys whenever we can, but it’s an uphill battle.
Please flag ‘em, we’ll get smarter and smarter about dealing with ‘em.
Thanks!
Craig
craig@craigslist.org
February 24th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Marc … I want to give you a fair review … place me in your system for 60 days and an objective summary will be forthcoming. Regards, Miguel T.
March 3rd, 2007 at 11:49 am
Has anyone ever gotten a job via Ladders?
March 4th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Here is my testimony: I subscribed to theladders free “basic” service back in April 2005. On May 2005 I went back to their website and used it to send a cover letter to a possible employer. In the process I had to pay $25 to get what I thought was a one-month premium service. As it turned out I landed a job that month with another company and I never went back theladders. Little did I know that I was then paying $25 every month till now and never using their service. That’s $525, not counting the first month and the current month. Yes, I did get emails every couple of days (most of which I never opened). But none of them aside from the first “welcome” one (which I never read till today), said I was still paying $25 each month. My wife pays the bills so I was unaware that I was shelling out all this money. We never got a renewal statement or monthly/yearly payment acknowledgement, and this includes emails titled “welcome to the club”.
Tonight my wife showed me the credit card bills. Not recognizing the name theladders I went to their website and discovered who they are. I just cancelled my subscription and requested return of monies paid after the first month. Seeing how they treat my case in the next week I will let this board know what I think of their customer service.
March 6th, 2007 at 1:07 am
It is the next day. In recognition that I have not used their service, or even submitted a bio, theladders has agreed to meet me half way and return a portion of the money they have collected through their auto-renewal policy. I find their response acceptable, and may even use their service again some day in the future if needed. Of course, next time I will have my eyes wide open regarding their renewal policies. Was it not for my wife paying the bills I would have spotted it immediately as their entry on my credit card plainly stated “theladders.com”. What triggered my wife to question the entry was that it occurred twice in the last month—you see they were not billing me once a month, but rather once every 4 weeks. I will leave to others to tell their story. For me in this era of caveat emptor theladders is not as bad as I originally surmised.
June 24th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
JOEL IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THERE IS A HACKER OUT THERE WHO IS A MASTER WEBSITE SPOOFER,CON MAN, WHO HAS COPIED TheLadders WEBSITE,INFO AND SPAMED EVERYTHING. HE HAS GIVE HIS WEBSITES SIMILAR NAMES AND DIFFERENT. WATCH CAREFULLY AND YOU WILL READ “SIMILAR PAGES” THAT IS THE HACKER. EVERY DOLLAR GOES INTO HIS POCKET. IT IS ILLEGAL AND FRAUD. YOU CANNOT TELL WHAT IS REAL AND NOT REAL. HE HAS EXECUNET, AND JOB FINDER, AND TheLadders.com etc. etc.
THIS HACKER STOLE MY ENTIRE E MAIL TO WHERE I COULD NOT GET INTO IT. AND THAT IS WHERE AND HOW HE GOT THE LADDERS NAME AND STARTED COPYING IT. PAY YOUR MONEY WITH A CREDIT CARD FOLKS FOR THAT $100,000 JOB. TOO MANY OF THESE SITES ARE THE HACKER’S AND THE MONEY GOES STRAIGHT INTO HIS POCKET. HE GETS THE NAMES OF COMPANIES FROM SOMEWHERE AND SLAPS THEM ON A MADE UP WEB PAGE THAT MAY NOT BE THERE TOMORROW. WATCH OUT AND BE CAREFUL
September 17th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Is this thing legal? Surely with 50 states and all those cities here and, if not here, then in Canada, Mexico, SOMEwhere - is there some law that says Marc must do all of this for free?
November 9th, 2007 at 11:54 am
[…] jobs offer some of the highest salaries to be found in the country. This fact was confirmed by TheLadders.com’s third-quarter Executive Job Market Tends report, which showed that San Francisco ranked […]
December 26th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
To Knot a Lawyer - there is no requirement that Marc Cendella must use his extensive network, contacts, and abilities for free to help companies match up high-paying jobs with candidates that are more targeted to those high paying jobs.
To Steven Wright - it is clearly written on the page that all memberships are auto renewed, it is that way now, it was that way when I first signed up a year ago, I can not for sure state what it was before then, but it appears that you did not understand the terms and conditions when you used your credit card, to say that “For me in this era of caveat emptor theladders is not as bad as I originally surmised.” is in fact misleading and at the least damning with faint praise.
Disclaimer: I have been a member of the theladders for approximately a year, only the free service. Mr. Cendella does seem to find and advertise the upper end jobs well before they become common knowledge, which to me means he is working with the proper network of people who value his service. I find his newsletter comments and suggestions helpful for the +100K territory, especially since that is the area of earnings I inhabit, and for which I occasionally interview and hire candidates. I am switching to the paying service after the year of watching and having discussions with another member who has been impressed with the job leads he has obtained via theladders for jobs in the UK.
I have no personal relationship with anyone in the theladders or financial interest in the organization other than my future paying membership.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
A friend and I used The Ladders and paid their fees for around a year and we both were not satisfied with the results.
I would receive responses from companies that I identified through The Ladders and they would ask how I became aware of the job opportunity, and I would say the Ladders and I would uniformly get the repsose “who or what are they?”. This was a few years ago, so maybe they have higher name recognition now, but there is clearly no relationship between the companies and The Ladders.
The Ladders also posts results of recently accepted jobs with titles like Marketing Manager or Marketing Director, yet the positions they advertise typically have very specific titles like Regional Advertising Manager or Cojnsumer Insights Director. It struck me as being a false testament to The Ladders effectiveness.
Although I thought The Ladders was a good concept to identify “real”, relatively good jobs, my experience was that the site is a bit of scam.
I would urge caution to anyone thinking of using it.
February 2nd, 2008 at 1:33 am
My husband read an article about The Ladders and suggested that I check it out. I did so several months ago. Although I never signed up or paid any money they now have my email address and I am deleting 1-2 spam messages from them DAILY. Any company that needs to resort to these tactics is questionable in my book.
February 7th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
[…] RiseSmart founder and CEO. “Most $100K+ earners are too busy to spend countless hours visiting different job boards and poring through the many often-irrelevant positions returned in a typical automated […]
February 15th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Sandy - I too took the ‘tour’ and now I am a luck recipient of the daily spams. None too happy about that…
February 18th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Oh no, I just completed a bio on The Ladders website. From what I just read, I may have made a mistake. Please prove me wrong!
February 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Same here… I just entered my personal info on ‘the Ladders’ just yesterday… at least I did not upload my resume neither did I subscribe…. When I read that in order to access a job offer that is out there, I had to pay x amount of $$ I suspected something was not right….
Plus all the jobs are above 100K… too good to be true, right? I am not saying there are no jobs that pay that kind of money… but why so much secrecy?
Thanks all.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
I have corresponded with Marc before, and he’s remarkably aggressive in avoiding discussion of about how the service works, and the stream of spam that the system spews out. I pointed out to him that I could find a high percentage of the jobs, which theladders posts after removing the real employer and their contact information, by just doing a search of the description. theladders, in other words, is really just a a search engine . It finds jobs you can find yourself. It then may channel an application to the original poster. Whether that works is not important, since all theladders is interested in is getting job seekers to send money. There is nothing wrong with the business plan, it seems to be very fruitful for its investors. Its not a charity. Turning this around, to where it should be pointing, if the service had a value to hiring managers, they would be more than glad to support the whole thing. They don’t. Get it?
I use the listings to find the original poster, then I contact them directly. I find they appreciate it. You can do this too.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Marc Cenedella, the problem with your site is that you make people register and give their email address BEFORE you reveal that you have to pay just to see a job.
That’s deceptive and disrespectful to people’s time and intelligence. You keep holding a carrot just out of reach and try to trick people into spending enough time on the site so they relent to giving in and spending $30 because they are already invested.
Of course, anyone who has ever had a 100k job would consider this a red flag showing that the site is just crap. Makes me think that most of the positions are fake ones just to get you to sign up. Much like how dating sites give you search results with a dozen hoties until you sign up and find out they are all spambots.
Also, any legitimate career service would rake it’s profits from paybacks from the hiring company. Companies typically give $10k-$20k kickback for filing a $100k position.
Finally, 100k positions are becoming common due to the hyperinflation the US is experiencing. the US dollar has lost over a third of its value compared to all other major currencies over the past 6 years alone. Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the record deficits used to pay for the Iraq war.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
[…] on theladders should stop bait-n-switch tactics by Dave | Celeb wohoo wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptMuch like how dating sites give you […]
February 26th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
I have read most of the comments on this blog and have only one question. Why does “Marc” waste his time on this site? Everybody knows it’s a daisy chain site that has no substance. FYI….Marc, you might want to use a PR firm before you respond…very unprofessional comments on your behalf and exposes your inside anger…I’m sticking with my Head Hunter.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
hey….Marc makes coin…..and it a free country and it is anyones choice to pay or to not to pay…let the buyer beware……anyone with half a brain should know that nothing is promised that you will get a $100k job just beacuse you paid $30 or $180 bucks, etc…. the Internet is full of hooks…..if you are nieve to this then you are half wits or just have nothing else t do but play mind game swith the guy, who its seems falls for it by replying…….i got all the way up to the pay screen and was pissed off it asked me to pay too, and i wasted time. , I made the decision to waste my time and hated it! He has a marketing scheme to make money and people are paying for it…PT Barnum said “a sucker is born every minute” he got rich off of people coming to his Circus….Marc’s “Circus audience” is the Internet user, His “Tent” is his website, you must pay to enter after you walk by or voew the “ad lures” or animals in a cage like PT Barnum did to get his suckers to be inerested to pay to go inside the tent, and then they find out it is a freak show some are enertained and some are not, that is your CHOICE to go inside his “tent”..you cant be mad at him for coming up with a way to make a buck or lots f them, I wish I would have done it, and I would enjoy the money…..he and as PT Barnum did is laughing at us…all the way to the bank……. I tam unemployed and cannot find another $80k job or ven a $40k job like i used to have. NAFTA, the ecocomy, OIL, The War, the country is is in shambles, CNN is telling us that everyday..as well that there are no jobs to be had and people are lsing them left and righ and beoming homeless like am about to be….so to believe Marc has hunderds of $100k plus jobs is being totally ignorant. It’s like a slot machine, you might hit the pay out but the odds are slim, but you dont have to play. Las Vegas casinos make money off of people like this day and night 365/24/7….So step up and lay your money don’t or just leave and go to another site……I wont pay for his entry to his circus tent, yet I wished I owned it. i dont even know why Ii wasted the time but you all must have no life to do this……..I am looking for jobs online for months now for free and am getting no where in my trade which used to be Telecom….so i had a few minutes to waste…….but I have not spent a dime….
Marc….do you need another , I want ot run away and join your circus and I need work…It dont even have to be at $100k!……..regards….
February 27th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
this is ridiculous. i just saw the commercial and it was pretty compelling. it seems like such a positive thing and then to realize it’s a scam. it’s ridiculous. all anybody really wants is a new job in $100K’s. is that too much to ask?
http://chlorococaina.blogspot.com
February 28th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
yes Mr. M. Vice305 it seems it is to much to ask these days..You are lucky to get a reply to your request for a $100k job these days let alone a job at all….. God and Goverment has bypassed the middle class some how and sent those jobs and money overseas to foreign ountries and wars…. yay! now go get ready to pay $4.00 a gallon gas this spring (predicted just on CNN) for your gasoline and be Happy to be Poor!…That is the American way now..Be Happy you are Poor..is the new Slogan from the Rich People!……We all should be happy about being poor and that Marc and his Team Players are not Poor!!!! they are smarter than us jobless $100k a year job day dreamers! They found a way to get money from poor people…so dont be mad at them!..be happy…. It’s the American Way! GO LADDERS.COM! hooo raaa!
If you are not happy about being poor or unemployed or dont make $100k and you make a gripe about it, the Government will think you un American for not being a Team Player and then spy on you. They will then find you with your GPS imbededed Cellphone, and arrest you and then more than willing to lock you up if you dont like it being poor or unemployed….and this will create more $100k jobs for Marc to advertise as they will need more prisons, courts, lawyers and judges, FBI, NSA and police to lock all the poor people like you that complain! …YAY… so be happy that jobs are created by being poor and that Marc is doing his part as an Americanin ensuring that $100k jobs are created
Its about it what were are supposed to do shut up and be poor and be happy or get tiwth the Team and tuen in yuor neoghbors for anything you find on them!…..the American way is to screw the everyone, and the poor ae easy targets, and now the middle class..so get with the Team, be a paid snitch, become a cop or lawyer or shut up like be happy ilke me, or go to jail …you can always kill yorself or go rob a bank, whuch of course… creates more $100k jobs for Marc!…..
if you have a job now Be Happy that your boss can turn your brains into an emotional mess everyday for less than last year! His boss does the same thing to him..Corporate & Government trickle down theory……to screw everyone, create more poor people and keep all the profits…… a never ending cycle of poor people is great for the country.!!!! being poor is a true Patriot…take one for the Team, go ahead and complain….
Now go get your kids piggy jar and send Marc & The Ladders your money for $100k jobs and find out that you probably don’t qualify for them and never will. They need the money to fill up their Hummers and Mercedes,, buy a new corporate tax free yacht every year and then go fishing and golfing in Los Cabos or Maui YAY!
I am happy for them, aren’t you!!!! you are un American if you are not! II have learned to be happy being poor
ok FBI & NSA… I am happy to be poor…Please don’t lock me up! ….I AM NOT COMPLAINING!…
Well…..I am a broke, about to be a “happy” homeless smelly former Internet user standing on this website corner,
Can anyone PLEASE spare $100k job for a cup of Starbucks coffee? “I will work for spaming Internet users!” I did after all write this for free….. hey are you gonna eat that rest of that Ceasar salad? …..
regards…The Cabo Flipper!
March 1st, 2008 at 3:24 pm
the Ladders.com JOB POSTING says:
March 1st, 2008 at 1:25 pm
TheLadders.com Circus and freak scam artist Team!
$100k+ jobs with theLadders.com
JOB POSTING, $100k plus…
Director of Freak Show & Internet Scams Department - DIRECT HIRE!
Exciting opportunity working to work with the Ladder.com Circus Freak Show Team.
Job duties include, luring and covincing desperate poor and unemployed people to subscribing to the Ladders.com, ruthlessly lying with a straight face, A strong desire the have little to no conscience and improve on cold hardedness, lack of morals and ethics, questionable personality skills, deceitful, must possses the ability to spin lies and scam people into believing our pitches and ads. Fraud, Convicted Felons, Scam Artists, Team Playing Cons and web freaks, Low Lifes are very welcome! Fleecing, pyramid scheme and internet spamming skills a plus!, Benefits include use of the Ladders.com yacht, company vehicles such as a Hummers or a Mercedes and access to our stable of midget freak show call girls/she males.
Also needed Bearded Fat Lady for our TV Spokesperson, this job pays, you guessed it $100k, includes free peanuts, ass wipes and beard and nose & butt hair trimming!
the Ladders.com JOB POSTING says:
March 1st, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Can i date the Bearded Fat Lady spokesperson? with that $100k job she is rich to me! All that sounds sexy to me?
I too am a homeless smelly internet user who spent my last money on theLadders.com and got no matches… so all I do now is stand around here scratching my mouse pad on this Internet corner too….geesh…..how many of us are there????
Mini Madonna says:
March 1st, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Do the Ladders.com midget freak show call girls/she males make $100k too? I want that JOB!
March 27th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I saw the listings for two related jobs probably in the same department, in a corporation with a branch in my town. I decided to look into their culture before submitting an application, so I checked the corporate website. That’s when I saw that the listings DO NOT EXIST on the corporate site, but rather a warning that recruitment agencies that solicit money should be looked at carefully, and if you didn’t see a matching listing on their actual site, you might have been scammed.
Which made me think…I have paid in full for the Premium service, which is supposed to garner A-team job postings. I also took advantage of the FREE resume service, twice. The first time, I sent in my circa 1990’s resume, got advice the first time, then six months later, upgraded my service to Premium and sent the resume back in, corrected. That’s when I go a nice note from Michele Goitiandia, Executive Resume Analyst of GETINTERVIEWS.COM (which I guess is part of the TheLadders Resume Team, chastising me for not having looked hard enough for a position, and still trying to charge me $695 to redo a resume I had just redone myself based on their last batch of suggestions. Oh, Michelle did offer to throw in the cover letter for no additional charge. $695 for both. Ahem, but isn’t that a bit steep? Then I got another note from them stating that the offer was being revised, along with the following admonition: “Avoid further delay. Job prospects are not improving with the current state of the economy.”
My analysis of all this is that I think Ladder.com is making a lot of money on getting people to pay to see listings that don’t exist in reality, while constantly sending the message that if you haven’t gotten a nibble, then maybe your resume is not-so-good. The scare tactics are supposed to inspire you to act with great haste to use their service. Personally, I think my resume will stand up to anyone’s with my credentials, so, no thanks to Michelle. I figure I threw away my money on the membership, but at least I can safely say that I have not spent almost $700 on a new resume.
A final note, google TheLadders, and you will see that they have paid to have themselves show up for over two pages before you find sites like this one with people offering critiques on them. Hmmm.
April 11th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Good Stuff!
I enjoyed reading the comments by those that are active in the recruiting industry but would also like to have some input from those that have had success in using “TheLadders”, et al.
It is my opinion that the best advertising is a good reference or multiple references from those that have had success from their association with an individual or a business operation like TheLadders.
BTW - The free sites should earn a lot of money to augment their earnings and profits if the advertising appearing on their webpages is effective and results in many click-throughs. It is likely that the original product or service advertiser, or the agency that placed the advertising, are the real decisions makers as to the sites in which they participate. If they are not financially rewarded for their efforts, they will either cease doing business or convert to another model.
Regards,
Don Cordier
April 16th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Has anyone been getting emails from TheLadders.com that contain lists of “available” jobs that have been already filled when you click on the links? Come on, this whole thing is a giant scam. I contend that it’s a high priced, bait-and-switch resume service and that’s it.
I did recently meet with a recruiter, a real human being, in an actual office, who looked at my resume, had me alter a couple of things and didn’t charge me a dime. With her advice, I now have a posted on-line portfolio and a strong resume that should work fine in my industry, anywhere in the country.
Marc Cendella, please quit pontificating or your little blog from whatever little getaway spot you’re at on a Sunday afternoon, because I’m sick of hearing how great your life is because you bring dream jobs to so many people. You are no better than some of the flim-flamming, no talent corporate career climbers I have met and worked with over the years.
April 17th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
The Ladders is a joke… Total fake out to get your resume, AND ONLY THEN tell you you have to pay for their “service”.
2-3 Spam email from Marc per week MINUMUM of totally useless information that ALWAYS is begging for you to join.
Go to 6figurejobs… way better and open & honest…
April 24th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
TheLadders.com seems BS. Always ask you to pay before you can apply or access the job posting. Plus those jobs really offer that big? WTF if it is I dont think they will be advertise tru TheLadders.com,not even a very known or reliable site so, I dont think so!
April 28th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
What a loser scam… the preposterous commercial trying to market this mess to snobs would be better off sticking to selling the rich `GRAY POUPON` sandwiches.
`Getting the little people out of the way of the “better people“…. something tells me these pretentious losers are going to be the one gotten out of my way, because anyone with a legit claim to a 6 figure salary doesnt need a scam site to get job leads in the first place, they are already being agressively pursued by headhunters and recruiters who are going to get a `cut` for placement from the EMPLOYER.
Anyone who signs up for this junk is almost certainly NOT a 6 figure hire, but a silly self important snob, who cant get a job but is being parted with their money by opportunists, who based their shceme on the “emporers new clothes“.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor’s_New_Clothes
“This cloth, they tell him, is invisible to anyone who was either stupid or not fit for his position. The Emperor is nervous about not being able to see the cloth himself so he sends his ministers to view it. They see nothing yet praise the cloth. When the swindlers report a suit of clothes has been fashioned, the Emperor allows himself to be dressed in their creation for a procession through town. During the course of the procession, a small child cries out, “But he has nothing on!” The crowd realizes the child is telling the truth and begins laughing. The Emperor, however, holds his head high and continues the procession.“