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	<title>Comments on: the ppc dilemma</title>
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	<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/</link>
	<description>Insight and opinion from the world of employment.</description>
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		<title>By: chamika</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-92260</link>
		<dc:creator>chamika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-92260</guid>
		<description>Has anyone out there heard about WideCircles.com. It seems like a way better service then wasting money on PPC. Apparently they are using refering websites ( forums, blogs, wiki, etc. ) and have a viral word of mouth distributed approach to it. My friend told me he got around 100 visits from single post which cost him $0.40c. I am going to give them a try today . In case you are intrested here is it. http://widecircles.com?s=imt1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone out there heard about WideCircles.com. It seems like a way better service then wasting money on PPC. Apparently they are using refering websites ( forums, blogs, wiki, etc. ) and have a viral word of mouth distributed approach to it. My friend told me he got around 100 visits from single post which cost him $0.40c. I am going to give them a try today . In case you are intrested here is it. <a href="http://widecircles.com?s=imt1" rel="nofollow">http://widecircles.com?s=imt1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jason Katcher</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-19230</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Katcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 23:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-19230</guid>
		<description>Although I am not one to chime in on Joel&#039;s thoughts, figured I should throw my $.02 in to make sure employers hear both sides, as Joel tends to leave one out more often than not.

Without a doubt SEO is important; however, if you are unable to drive qualified traffic to the site you just invested your dollars into, then the true value is never truly unlocked, which is why SEM AND SEO are both necessary to compliment one another.  It is not about finding that one medium to source talent, but rather discovering what marketing mix works best for that organization.  Second, SEO rarely works overnight, or ever, in many cases and drilling down to ROI using SEO is something of a mystery.  SEM can be started in a matter of minutes with actual ROI metrics to back it up.  Yes, the costs are slowly increasing as they have across other verticals like retailers, entertainment, finance, etc..yet those industries who adopted search way before recruitment continue to thrive using cpc even as costs have gone up, so there should be plenty of time before that starts to impact this late-to-market vertical when it comes to search.  And yes, much of that analysis is put back to the company and their tracking mechanisms, but it is more than achievable through tools like Google Analytics (if Joel can promote his, I&#039;ll throw a shameless plug in for us).

It is interesting that for someone who has been so pro-Google, Yahoo and search in general as an alternative to job boards, would be so quick and abrupt in dismissing search completely and supporting SEO.  Then again, it is your blog, so promote what you would like...But what do I know...I only for Google.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I am not one to chime in on Joel&#8217;s thoughts, figured I should throw my $.02 in to make sure employers hear both sides, as Joel tends to leave one out more often than not.</p>
<p>Without a doubt SEO is important; however, if you are unable to drive qualified traffic to the site you just invested your dollars into, then the true value is never truly unlocked, which is why SEM AND SEO are both necessary to compliment one another.  It is not about finding that one medium to source talent, but rather discovering what marketing mix works best for that organization.  Second, SEO rarely works overnight, or ever, in many cases and drilling down to ROI using SEO is something of a mystery.  SEM can be started in a matter of minutes with actual ROI metrics to back it up.  Yes, the costs are slowly increasing as they have across other verticals like retailers, entertainment, finance, etc..yet those industries who adopted search way before recruitment continue to thrive using cpc even as costs have gone up, so there should be plenty of time before that starts to impact this late-to-market vertical when it comes to search.  And yes, much of that analysis is put back to the company and their tracking mechanisms, but it is more than achievable through tools like Google Analytics (if Joel can promote his, I&#8217;ll throw a shameless plug in for us).</p>
<p>It is interesting that for someone who has been so pro-Google, Yahoo and search in general as an alternative to job boards, would be so quick and abrupt in dismissing search completely and supporting SEO.  Then again, it is your blog, so promote what you would like&#8230;But what do I know&#8230;I only for Google.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Furst</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18357</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Furst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18357</guid>
		<description>Joel - an interesting topic.  As you know, SEO has worked for us and we continue to invest in it.  However, we consider SEO to be part of multiple potential investment options.

For our recruitment process outsourcing business, it is not either SEO or PPC only.  We&#039;re evaluating print, radio, job fairs, job boards, resume banks, referral software tools, good old fashioned referrals, guys with sandwich boards, and traditional networking.   For example, PPC may be a much better investment than running a print ad in the Sunday job section.  We&#039;ll get the same potential traffic at a fraction of the cost.  And, we can track results better.  In terms of candidate quality and the cost to get the candidate, we know that good old fashioned referrals beat the internet.  The internet beats print and radio.  The jury is still out on software referral systems.

In our view, both SEO and PPC provide solid returns to our investment.  They solve different questions for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel &#8211; an interesting topic.  As you know, SEO has worked for us and we continue to invest in it.  However, we consider SEO to be part of multiple potential investment options.</p>
<p>For our recruitment process outsourcing business, it is not either SEO or PPC only.  We&#8217;re evaluating print, radio, job fairs, job boards, resume banks, referral software tools, good old fashioned referrals, guys with sandwich boards, and traditional networking.   For example, PPC may be a much better investment than running a print ad in the Sunday job section.  We&#8217;ll get the same potential traffic at a fraction of the cost.  And, we can track results better.  In terms of candidate quality and the cost to get the candidate, we know that good old fashioned referrals beat the internet.  The internet beats print and radio.  The jury is still out on software referral systems.</p>
<p>In our view, both SEO and PPC provide solid returns to our investment.  They solve different questions for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Stubblebine</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18296</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Stubblebine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 02:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18296</guid>
		<description>Joel, great topic.  We currently spend dollars on Simply Hired, Indeed, Go Jobs, Top USA Jobs, Google and others, and quite frankly, it is getting out of hand.  We look at the corporate card and are amazed at how much money these PPC and PPA (pay per applicant) programs are costing us.  5 years ago, we&#039;d spend $9K for a billboard and hope we get some good brand, and now, we spend $9K, get 18,000 visitors to the site at $.50 a pop.  The funny thing is that with many of the VSE&#039;s, the boards don&#039;t even get much branding for the clicks we pay for.  The jobseeker searches on Indeed, finds a JobCircle job, clicks on the Indeed link to be sent to JobCircle to read it, and then they hit the back button to go back to Indeed.  Where&#039;s the strategic value in the .25 I just paid indeed for that click?  Do I get any brand out of it?  Any residual value?  So now, instead of the $9K that gave me the nice pretty billboard on the highway, I get $9K of jobseekers that don&#039;t have any relationship with our site, and I get no long term strategic benefit for the clicks I just paid for.

We&#039;re trying to get smarter on how we manage and monitor these campaigns, but it can be quite labor intensive to consistently manage, monitor, and adjust our spending to make sure we&#039;re getting the best conversions for the buck.  We’re developing better tracking mechanisms so that I can compare traffic quality of all of our vendors, and make sure I’m getting the most value out of our campaigns.  Additionally, as the big budget sites continue to drive up the cost of keywords, these programs will only get more and more expensive.  And that is not even considering the recent questions about fraudulent click generation and other hazards of the business.

Job boards want two things from a PPC campaign - resumes in the database and applicants to our customers&#039; jobs.  Right now, Indeed simply provides search results with a link to the job on the job board.  Why not show the jobseeker the entire job description on Indeed, then when the applicant wants to apply, charges me twice as much?  I&#039;d rather pay much more for an applicant than a click.  Not to mention, the added benefit of having the entire job displayed on Indeed allows them to sell embedded keyword advertising throughout the job description (more revenue for them).  GadBall is a good example of a site that has a reverse model to the PPC&#039;s who drive traffic to a job board - a PPR (pay per resume).  If you send me 500 resumes a day of jobseekers that have voluntarily indicated that they want their resume inserted into our site, now we&#039;re talking.  Now I’ve got 500 jobseekers with whom I can build relationships with, sell things to, invite to job fairs, and give them exposure to hundreds of employers.

There are some really interesting models out there, and it is gonna be fun to see how it all plays out.  Thanks for the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel, great topic.  We currently spend dollars on Simply Hired, Indeed, Go Jobs, Top USA Jobs, Google and others, and quite frankly, it is getting out of hand.  We look at the corporate card and are amazed at how much money these PPC and PPA (pay per applicant) programs are costing us.  5 years ago, we&#8217;d spend $9K for a billboard and hope we get some good brand, and now, we spend $9K, get 18,000 visitors to the site at $.50 a pop.  The funny thing is that with many of the VSE&#8217;s, the boards don&#8217;t even get much branding for the clicks we pay for.  The jobseeker searches on Indeed, finds a JobCircle job, clicks on the Indeed link to be sent to JobCircle to read it, and then they hit the back button to go back to Indeed.  Where&#8217;s the strategic value in the .25 I just paid indeed for that click?  Do I get any brand out of it?  Any residual value?  So now, instead of the $9K that gave me the nice pretty billboard on the highway, I get $9K of jobseekers that don&#8217;t have any relationship with our site, and I get no long term strategic benefit for the clicks I just paid for.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re trying to get smarter on how we manage and monitor these campaigns, but it can be quite labor intensive to consistently manage, monitor, and adjust our spending to make sure we&#8217;re getting the best conversions for the buck.  We’re developing better tracking mechanisms so that I can compare traffic quality of all of our vendors, and make sure I’m getting the most value out of our campaigns.  Additionally, as the big budget sites continue to drive up the cost of keywords, these programs will only get more and more expensive.  And that is not even considering the recent questions about fraudulent click generation and other hazards of the business.</p>
<p>Job boards want two things from a PPC campaign &#8211; resumes in the database and applicants to our customers&#8217; jobs.  Right now, Indeed simply provides search results with a link to the job on the job board.  Why not show the jobseeker the entire job description on Indeed, then when the applicant wants to apply, charges me twice as much?  I&#8217;d rather pay much more for an applicant than a click.  Not to mention, the added benefit of having the entire job displayed on Indeed allows them to sell embedded keyword advertising throughout the job description (more revenue for them).  GadBall is a good example of a site that has a reverse model to the PPC&#8217;s who drive traffic to a job board &#8211; a PPR (pay per resume).  If you send me 500 resumes a day of jobseekers that have voluntarily indicated that they want their resume inserted into our site, now we&#8217;re talking.  Now I’ve got 500 jobseekers with whom I can build relationships with, sell things to, invite to job fairs, and give them exposure to hundreds of employers.</p>
<p>There are some really interesting models out there, and it is gonna be fun to see how it all plays out.  Thanks for the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Martone</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18287</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Martone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18287</guid>
		<description>Good read. Though, when considering PPC in the context of the job search vertical, I wouldn’t say that PPC is a ‘vicious cycle.’
 
Job search is, in large part, a local activity &amp; local recruitment-related keyword inventory is less competitive than consumer keywords. So, early adopting Recruiters have in PPC, an opportunity to maximize returns that may be bigger than their counter-parts in different departments. 

In other words, SEM for consumer leads should not be used to pitch or put down SEM for recruitment leads. Two different beasts.

Regarding SEO...HRSEO...if you will…yes SEO is a very important long term strategy. 

But if you need to connect TOMORROW with EVERYONE searching ‘Java’ in your LOCAL area, then geo-targeted PPC is an awesome tool to have at your disposal.

To those above...

Doug,
I would disagree 1000% percent. A PPC investment is not gone tomorrow. Are you aware of the value that PPC brings to employer branding efforts? That value is def. not short-term.

Kelvin,
There are plenty of people out there who have spent very well with PPC and made some pretty bad ‘investments,’ in SEO.

Chad,
I got nothing. (…Danm that Chad…he’s good.)

Steve,
I think a little self-promotion in between valuable content is just fine. Considering the number of comments, it’s obviously, thought-provoking self promotion. I am by no means someone who would go out of their way to stick up for Joel. I too am a self-promoter but I think that&#039;s ok if you earn the right by providing some valuebel service.

Nick, Good luck.

Paul, ‘spot on?’ com’on

Peter, Agreed. SEO is needed as ATS technology is week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good read. Though, when considering PPC in the context of the job search vertical, I wouldn’t say that PPC is a ‘vicious cycle.’</p>
<p>Job search is, in large part, a local activity &amp; local recruitment-related keyword inventory is less competitive than consumer keywords. So, early adopting Recruiters have in PPC, an opportunity to maximize returns that may be bigger than their counter-parts in different departments. </p>
<p>In other words, SEM for consumer leads should not be used to pitch or put down SEM for recruitment leads. Two different beasts.</p>
<p>Regarding SEO&#8230;HRSEO&#8230;if you will…yes SEO is a very important long term strategy. </p>
<p>But if you need to connect TOMORROW with EVERYONE searching ‘Java’ in your LOCAL area, then geo-targeted PPC is an awesome tool to have at your disposal.</p>
<p>To those above&#8230;</p>
<p>Doug,<br />
I would disagree 1000% percent. A PPC investment is not gone tomorrow. Are you aware of the value that PPC brings to employer branding efforts? That value is def. not short-term.</p>
<p>Kelvin,<br />
There are plenty of people out there who have spent very well with PPC and made some pretty bad ‘investments,’ in SEO.</p>
<p>Chad,<br />
I got nothing. (…Danm that Chad…he’s good.)</p>
<p>Steve,<br />
I think a little self-promotion in between valuable content is just fine. Considering the number of comments, it’s obviously, thought-provoking self promotion. I am by no means someone who would go out of their way to stick up for Joel. I too am a self-promoter but I think that&#8217;s ok if you earn the right by providing some valuebel service.</p>
<p>Nick, Good luck.</p>
<p>Paul, ‘spot on?’ com’on</p>
<p>Peter, Agreed. SEO is needed as ATS technology is week.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Gold</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18284</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Gold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18284</guid>
		<description>Joel

The other point is that a lot of employer sites are written by ad agencies who just want to win awards for their use of flash and flowery words plus the ATS vendors technology does not allow the jobs to be indexed.  This leaves the employer with limited SEO options and have to rely on SEM.  In many cases even a direct search e.g. working at Employer Name doesn&#039;t see them in the results page!! 

I agree that SEO is needed over the long term but as we know, it all takes time.......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel</p>
<p>The other point is that a lot of employer sites are written by ad agencies who just want to win awards for their use of flash and flowery words plus the ATS vendors technology does not allow the jobs to be indexed.  This leaves the employer with limited SEO options and have to rely on SEM.  In many cases even a direct search e.g. working at Employer Name doesn&#8217;t see them in the results page!! </p>
<p>I agree that SEO is needed over the long term but as we know, it all takes time&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18283</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18283</guid>
		<description>Spot on Joel; I can&#039;t believe more people are talking about this...

We&#039;re over in London, and have been pretty much at the forefront here of getting organisations (job boards, recruitment agencies, direct employers) to use PPC to drive recruitment traffic. However, exactly the same thing has started to happen in the UK - what was once genuinely innovative / cost effective is becoming less so by the day. Fewer people have cottoned onto Overture/Yahoo -  so the costs are less inflated - but the inventories just don&#039;t make it as compelling a proposition as Adwords. 

SEO (particularly if paired with a cogent  blogging strategy) is undoubtedly the way forward - but it&#039;s such a headache for all the reasons you mention..

I guess the question in my mind is: what&#039;s going to be the next *bomb*? One big advantage of consulting over here is that we get a 6 month head start by listening to the conversation over there :)  

P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spot on Joel; I can&#8217;t believe more people are talking about this&#8230;</p>
<p>We&#8217;re over in London, and have been pretty much at the forefront here of getting organisations (job boards, recruitment agencies, direct employers) to use PPC to drive recruitment traffic. However, exactly the same thing has started to happen in the UK &#8211; what was once genuinely innovative / cost effective is becoming less so by the day. Fewer people have cottoned onto Overture/Yahoo &#8211;  so the costs are less inflated &#8211; but the inventories just don&#8217;t make it as compelling a proposition as Adwords. </p>
<p>SEO (particularly if paired with a cogent  blogging strategy) is undoubtedly the way forward &#8211; but it&#8217;s such a headache for all the reasons you mention..</p>
<p>I guess the question in my mind is: what&#8217;s going to be the next *bomb*? One big advantage of consulting over here is that we get a 6 month head start by listening to the conversation over there :)  </p>
<p>P</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Wadenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18278</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Wadenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18278</guid>
		<description>Nick Roy...that&#039;s great.  Its relevant how?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick Roy&#8230;that&#8217;s great.  Its relevant how?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Roy</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18259</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Roy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18259</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m currently studying to become Google certified in ppc. I&#039;m scheduled to take the test in April.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently studying to become Google certified in ppc. I&#8217;m scheduled to take the test in April.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Wadenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/comment-page-1/#comment-18232</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Wadenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cheezhead.com/2007/03/21/ppc-dilemma/#comment-18232</guid>
		<description>Its interesting that someone who owns a SEO company would say that SEO is the way to go.  He might be right, but o those readying this...make sure you understand your source&#039;s motives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its interesting that someone who owns a SEO company would say that SEO is the way to go.  He might be right, but o those readying this&#8230;make sure you understand your source&#8217;s motives.</p>
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